Remicade question

2007-03-31 22:39:41

Hello Everyone,
I had my first Remicade infusion on Tuesday. So far so good! The
only real side effect I had is that I was very tired...so tired that I
slept all night Tuesday night! :) There has been no other change in my
condition, but of course I was not expecting anything yet. One thing
I have noticed is that I am extremely thirsty. I don't see where this
is a listed side effect of the Remicade. Has anyone else had this
problem with Remicade? I figured if this is still going on on Monday
I might give my rhuemy a call.
Any thoughts anyone?
Thanks, Ronda

Re: Enbrel restart

2007-03-31 21:17:58

Ian, it's so good to hear from you! I was afraid you had disappeared
forever. So glad to hear that you are doing well. I know what you
mean about injection day. I don't know why I dread it - it doesn't hurt me at
all. But I just hate having to do it; I think it's the way my anger at the
disease comes out. I find I delay it later and later in the day every week. I
have to take my Humira every week, and I'm
thinking of changing the day because it sure ruins a Friday!
Welcome back!
sherry z

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Frozen shoulder and PsA

2007-03-31 09:23:35

Max: arthritis of the shoulder is much more common than you'd think. I only
developed PsA last year but had been having shoulder problems for probably 8 to
10 years and had seen a number of doctors (getting some relief from
chiropractors for a while). Finally I went to an orthopod who did an MRI and
discovered that I have an advanced form of osteoarthritis called avascular
necrosis. He tried cortisone injections which did not help the pain at all.
The only thing that has is physical therapy and it has been a real blessing. It
turns out that - despite what the ortho told me about a shoulder replacement
being my only option in terms of pain relief - the pain was not from the AVN at
all but from a very deep seated structural problem in my upper back that took
some time to uncover but I am now pain free, thanks to a very good physical
therapist who kept digging (literally) until he figured out what the problem
was. The shoulder is one of our most complicated joints because there are so
many muscles/tendons attached to it. And those muscles/tendons are attached to
the ribs which can complicate things even further. If you doctor will give you
a prescription for therapy, you might want to try it.
Joanna Hoelscher

Re: Frozen shoulder and PsA

2007-03-31 06:13:34

Hi Max,
My DH has PsA. It's in his shoulders and hips. (I too find that
strange because I hear more about fingers, toes, knees etc)
He is currently taking Humira injections once every 2 weeks. (He
just had his 2nd injection last Friday.
Do you have Psoriasis? If so...then..yes..this could be PsA. :(
Take care. :)
"fit2bfit2003" <aerobicfit@...

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Enbrel restart

2007-03-30 20:58:27

Injections aren't that bad if do them in the abdomen, ice first, then make sure
you inject very, very slowly.
Joanna Hoelscher

Enbrel restart

2007-03-30 18:59:45

Hi all,
I restated Enbrel on June 20th and the difference is just fantastic.
The morning after I was able to tie my shoe laces without pain. My P
has started healing and am looking forwards to wearing dark coloured
clothing without my halo. On the down side tomorrow is injection day.
Keep the light shining,
Ian.

Frozen shoulder and PsA

2007-03-30 12:49:40

Anyone here had frozen shoulder? I started with this last year, have had 2
hydrodilatations (cortisone and saline injections into the joint) which were
very painful, both helped with the agonising pain, but it never got properly
better and I still cant sleep through a night,still have aching pain all the
time and pain at end of ROM and getting stiffer again 2 months after the
injection. I'm taking MTX (15 mg) and Mobic and doc has said to increase MTX to
20 mg now as it may be PsA in the shoulder also.
Thanks for your ideas, I didn't think arthritis in the shoulder was very common
or likely.
max

How free of pain and stiffness can we expect to be?

2007-03-30 08:59:33

Just wondering, I had a few finger and toe joints affected about 10 years ago,
now I've progressed from anti-inflammatories to MTX + anti-inflammatory with
about 1/2 my fingers affected, and a few toe joints. Lot of tendon pain too in
hands and feet also left SI joint and probably some activity in my shoulder now
too. So am wondering as my medication level is increased each rheumy visit, how
free of pain should we expect to be. I'm not badly affected like a lot of people
here, so I'd hoped that I wouldnt need increasing meds to carry out my job and
function at home.
thanks everyone
stay well
max

Re:lgbt family and PsA

2007-03-30 00:20:48

That is so cool. I am straight, but I have been raised to be open minded to
other people's lifestyles and choices. To me love is love. I am glad same
sex marriage is now legal in CA. It's about time.
Randi
randi68az@...

Rituxan

2007-03-29 15:43:59

Tracy: this is not a drug I've heard of before and when I need to know
something I go first to the web. The company's website on this drug is at
http://www.rituxan.com/ra/index.jsp. It primarily discusses rituxan for
treatment of RA but most drugs that treat RA also are used for PA. There are
some interesting and very significant potential side effects and I would look at
them carefully and question your doctor about his experience with patients on
the drug. I assume you've tried Embrel and Remicade or they won't work for you
either?
I hope others in the group have had actual experience with the drug. It is so
helpful to know that others have been thru exactly what you're going thru and
can give you advice on the practical, little (and big) stuff your doctors never
bother to tell you!!!!! Good luck with it. I so hope it helps. Enbrel has
been a god-send for me.
Joanna Hoelscher

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] lgbt family and PsA

2007-03-29 10:40:25

In a message dated 6/24/08 2:05:08 PM, bnlerner@... writes:
Congratulations! San Francisco is a beautiful city and I hope you have a
lovely wedding. I lived there for 27 years before moving, and I still own a
house in SF. It has too much sentimental value for me to sell.
The City will be packed with people coming from all over the country this
weekend. It should be glorious. San Franciscans are known to party for just
about any reason, and the recent court ruling allowing same-sex weddings will
surely make this year's celebration an inspired event.
Just don't block my driveway ;).
Regards,
BeingIrish

Re: Rituxan

2007-03-29 07:22:10

Joanna and all, I know you don't know me, but I have a question for all of you.
People on the list seem to know alot about some of the medications given for
PsA. I am suppose to be starting a medication called Rituxan. I can't be on
Humira because of reoccuring bladder infections. Now they want to put me on
this because I am becomming deformed now. I have not been on anything for
almost a year now. Any ways I was wondering if you heard of this drug. Guess
it is a chemo med and I have to take it by IV infusion. Thanks for listening,
Tracy.

lgbt family and PsA

2007-03-28 22:01:44

Hi there,
For me what I found difficult is that I was always the little athlete in the
crowd, Softball, flag football and running. I always saw myself as invincible
in the crowd. When I got sick the first time with PsA my entire back was
covered in scabs, so bad that when I went to a music festival and was walking
around doing my thing and people saw my scabs everyone pretty much was, afraid
they would catch what I had. I had to explain what I had was not contagious.
Also because for about two years after I was first diagnosed I used a scooter to
move around I was seen very differently by the community I lived in.
One thing that is nice about the LGBT community for the most part is that
unfortunately we are well aware of how to take of our less than perfectly
healthy members, for that I am grateful.
Now on Enbrel and MTX and am doing much better. Amazingly enough my partner was
just recently diagnosed with PsA also. We are actually going to SF to get
married this weekend. Plan is we need to be able to take care of each other in
sickness and in health. My company will cover my partner on our health
insurance if we are "married" so away we go!
Barb

Re: Dull lingering headaches

2007-03-28 12:40:56

Hi Randi--
I have this going on for at least three days after my 15mg methotrexate per
week. I have thrown up once but am extremely photosensitive and
nauseous. It sucks. I am trying to be strong and see the difference in my PA.
I am also on 10 mg of prednisone per day but it is making me even more
miserable. My rheumy wants me on it until early august but i do not think I
will make it more than one more week- time to taper down
to 5mg from 10mg prednisone. I am having breakthrough pain with the pred.
Jessica

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Dull lingering headaches

2007-03-28 06:31:30

Randi,
Yes, I have had a similar problem. I do have severe headaches and use
imitrex but these were different and too frequent and a dull lingering
headache. They seemed to be triggered by the PA affecting my neck. My Dr.
gave me Topamax and it has worked really well and has had the added benefit
of making me sleep so well. I've been using it for about 3 months and have
had the best sleep ever.
Cathy

Re: Swollen leg and foot

2007-03-28 06:25:18

I've had intermittent swelling of my lower legs several times. Just
one leg at a time, but it's hit both of them. I haven't seen my
rheumy when this has happened, but I've mentioned it to her and she
did not think it was typical for PA although it's been mentioned by
others here so I think maybe it might be. My rheumy was mostly
worried about a possible blood clot, but she checked my ankle/foot
pulse and said everything looked OK. Anyway, I think my PA causes my
lower leg swelling but I can't explain why. I'm wondering if it's
not simply related to the full-body inflammation that goes on and
perhaps gravity causing fluid to collect there when we are on our
feet a lot?
regards,
sherry z

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Repeat Pain

2007-03-27 21:29:15

Dear Cindy
?I am so glad that you wrote about this as it is what I am suffering from right
now.The pain is as though someone kicked me in the kidney and hurts like hell. I
have gotten this before and thought it was a muscle spasm.It is getting better
now but it sure hurts when I got it.
Regards
Walt

Re: Palm Springs, CA and PsA

2007-03-27 20:13:56

Hello Barb,
I just came back from Yuma, AZ. I stayed there with mom for 3 weeks
and it was wonderful, my pain was much less there then were I am from.
The thing is that right now there is a lot of humidity and I found out
that humid heat is not good for me. I believe the best time to be in
the the palm springs area is from October to May.
Good Luck
"Raul" <raulalex67@...

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Swollen leg and foot

2007-03-27 07:43:40

Ask your rheumy about Arava. I know it relieved the swelling around my ankles
and feet.Good Luck and God Bless
Walt

Repeat Pain

2007-03-27 04:50:29

I have a pain in my back lower left side over the kidney area. About
20 mths ago I had a sever spasm attack of my entire mid-section that
lasted for about 20 minutes and made me so sore I ended up in bed for
3 days. Felt like someone beat me up actually. The one pain that
remained after the 3 days was this pain over and around the kidney
area. Went to my GP, a urologist and Gyno. Nothing. Every test
under the sun was done, then one day about 3 months later the pain went
away. The pain has returned on and off for varying amounts of time
over the 20mths. sometimes for a few weeks, sometimes a few days.
My doctors all seem to think it is the muscles surrounding the area
of my kidney that are being attacked by the PA, since NOTHING comes
back in the test. Mentioning it now as it is starting again this
morning. It also hurts to the touch.
Note of interest, I am under and unbelievable amount of stress right
now. My sister is very sick and am running from one specialist to
another for her. She has had daily pain in her face and 3-5
migraines a week for 4 years now and last week I took her to the
hospital. So I have a few things on my plate and this pain does seem
to flare when I am under stress.
Thanks for listening and insight as always.
Cindy

Dull lingering headaches

2007-03-27 01:49:45

Hello,
I mostly lurk, but I wanted to ask everyone if they've experienced a
dull lingering headache. I am taking Methotrexate 10mg once a week and
then Humira every other week. I am in remission, but still need to
take my tramadol when I am at work because I have breakthrough back and
neck pain.
Lately, I have been waking up every day with a dull lingering headache
that sometimes gets so bad that I get sick to my stomach. I am
wondering if this is something related to my PA or a symptom of
something else.
Thank you in advance,
Randi in Peoria,AZ

Swollen leg and foot

2007-03-26 14:12:19

I have PA which seems to be mostly affecting the joints on the right
side of my body, although lately I have started having discomfort in my
left knee and hip. Currently the lower half of my right leg and my foot
are very swollen with pitting around the ankles. Weird thing is, my
joints aren't particularly hurting right now. I'm not sure what to
think of this, is it common, or could this be a symptom of something
else completely?
I feel very frustrated right now, I'm 33 with the body of an 80 year
old, it's so discouraging that I cried for the first time today.
"parkeruk1" <parkeruk1@...

Re:Having problems with costcondritis....Please help!!

2007-03-26 08:51:00

Vickey,
I have problems with costro as well. I have since I was in High School.
Usually it hits me in my chest, but recently it has been hitting me along my
left side along the ribs. Mine tends to come and go, lasting from hours to
days. Over the years, I have found that heat can work to help alleviate some of
the pain, for me. I hope you get to feeling better.
Rachel

Just a periodic reminder . . .

2007-03-26 02:07:28

. . . that no one on this list is a physician. If you have a medical
question, ask your doctor!
RA Harris
North Jersey

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Having problems with costcondritis....Please help!!

2007-03-26 02:00:57

Vickey,
The only thing that help me was a heating pad set on low. I used it for about
three months before it was more bearable. Come to find out that I had
interstitial pulmonary fibrosis (rheumatic lung) and I was miserable for about 8
months in 2005 with it. Now once in a while it pops up and I go to bed with the
heating pad for a couple of hours and then it is gone. I am on only antibiotics
now and feel a lot better. Had to get off all the medicine like prednisone,
Enbrel etc. it caused a lot of problem in my body.
Take care, stay well.
Eva

Re: Newbie

2007-03-25 20:04:16

Trish, is he seeing a rheumatologist? That is step one.
best regards,
sherry z

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] PROGRESSION OF SYMPTOMS

2007-03-25 17:14:44

I too am in the progression on symptoms chapter of my life with PA. I wanted to
vent earlier today, but I stopped myself, then later decided I needed to vent.
Thanks for sharing your story.
I have been in pain for around a month. I have had PA since 1999 with a few
years in remission due to surgery-joint replacements.
Anyhow I also wonder what the heck is going on with my body as well. My
shoulder began to hurt, my left ring finger swelled up. A few weeks later my
right hand started hurting and then my 3 toe on the right side flared up. Now
my knees hurt and its difficult getting up in the morning.
I went to see my Rheumy on Monday and had x-rays done on my hands, feet, and
shoulder. They showed that I had progressed deterioration in the left hand and
wrist, and right wrist had some deterioration. Thankfully the right fingers are
all okay - they don't feel ok.
For me, we are going to try the Enbrel as she finds that she has a better rate
of relief quickly then Methotrexate. However I have to wait for the Insurance
approval. For now I am on prednisone and some Anti-inflammatory drug that I
can't remember the name of right now.
Anyhow the Rheumy also found a lump on my throat (Thyroid). So I am awaiting
Ultra-sound results on that.
I am feeling a little overwhelmed by pain, as I hear your story, it makes me
realize that I am not (sadly) alone. Although we may not have the same pain in
each area - we definitely feel the same kind of pain.
Thankfully I can I am feeling well enough to write this. My pain is so severe
in the morning and the evenings that I am so thankful for the mid-mornings and
afternoon-to early evening.
I am thankful to you for writing your diary because I think it helps you and us
all.
Rita Bobela <rcgbobela@...

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Overwhelmed

2007-03-25 05:01:11

Todd: from the list of drugs you provided, it appears that you are treating the
symptoms but not the disease. I don't know what you have but you likely need to
see a rheumatologist ASAP because you appear to have some signs of either RA. PA
or some other auto-immune disease. If so, you need medications that will halt
the progression of the disease and protect your joints - plus help tremendously
with pain. Pain killers do nothing but mask the damage that is likely being
done. Get the proper medical help as quickly as possible. You are far too
young to put your life on hold.
Joanna Hoelscher

Re: PROGRESSION OF SYMPTOMS

2007-03-25 02:41:57

Laurie, it certainly sounds familiar. The back pain you've had since
24 could have been PA all along, by the way. I had knee pain since
15 (that's 40 years!) and it went completely away when I got treated
for PA. It's common to get better during pregnancy - your immune
system slows down then. It's also common to flare after giving
birth. If you have PA, I would bet the trigger was the long hours
and stress you were under rather than the drugs you were taking.
That's what triggered my huge flare that earned me the diagnosis.
Is that the Niko Niko in Houston on Montrose that you mention? If
so, my daughter lives a few blocks away and we eat there whenever we
visit her!
By the way, you might have better luck with Aleve. It's the same as
Naproxen, just a lower dose. I can look up in my notes how many
Aleves you can take at one time if you are interested.
best regards,
sherry z

Re: Overwhelmed

2007-03-24 14:39:53

Todd, hang in there! Things should get better, although it can take
a few months. Are you in the U.S.? Are you seeing a
rheumatologist? The Celebrex is an anti-inflammatory which might
help the pain and swelling and sometimes can put the flare into
remission if it hasn't gotten too bad yet. But it sounds like you're
in pretty serious pain. You need to let the doctor know within a
month if the meds are not helping you significantly. They will need
to put you on one of the disease-modifying anti-rheumatic drugs which
can actually slow or stop the progression of this disease. If you
don't speak up it could longer than necessary.
best regards and welcome,
sherry z

Having problems with costcondritis....Please help!!

2007-03-24 09:43:07

I have been having rib pain for over 3 weeks now. Finally went to
doc..said costcondritis. Got steroid shot and toradol shot..went home
with steroid dose pack, pain meds, and antibiotics..Here is the
deal..I am ok as long as I take the pain med every 4 to 6 hours..and
if I lay very still...The minute I start moving around I begin to
hurt..Does anyone out there have this problem and how long does this
last..Eveything I have read says it can go on for long periods of
time..I am really bummed about this..It hurts on my right side in my
rib cage at times it is very hard to breathe..am scheduled to return
to the dr tomorrow for recheck...I am just wondering if there is
anything else that could be done about this. I am feeling somewhat
hopeless right now..Any feedback would be sooo appreciated..
thanks so much for reading my post and I welcome your feedback..
Vickey

Palm Springs, CA and PsA

2007-03-24 09:07:28

Hi there,
I am starting to look in the Palm Springs CA area to move to. Anyone have
any ideas suggestions on Dessert Living with PA? One of the great things is
that most of the houses we are looking at have salt water pools in the
yards. That would be wonderful for me!!
Thanks in advance,
Barb

Editors note

2007-03-24 01:41:14

We're back --
Anyone who is new to the list:
This is an edited list, meaning that an editor vets each and every
message. I fix spellings and some grammar but for the most part I
leave messages alone and forward them to the list. On very rare
occasions I return messages for editing before they can be posted.
On even more rare occasions I am away from email and am not able to
edit the list. I've been away for the last week, but I've returned
and have edited all the waiting messages -- for the record, the list is open for
business!
Robert Harris
North Jersey

Women's Shoes

2007-03-23 12:48:09

Hi Ladies!
I have found a wonderful, comfortable and actually therapeutic new
shoe. I have PA in most of my joints, and found on Victorias Secret the
new FitFlop. Oh, so comfortable. They absorb shock and actually help
your balance and comfort. My lower back actually feels better, as well
as my feet.
Hope this helps!
Kari

homeopathy

2007-03-23 09:38:39

I've been going to a homeopath since October. It has helped me a lot
but not eliminate the symptoms completely. I'd say 50% of my patches
have gone and I can walk and run and play a lot of sports. has anyone
every gone to a homeopath and what have they found from it?

PROGRESSION OF SYMPTOMS

2007-03-23 07:46:55

A PAIN DIARY, FOR ANYONE WHO IS INTERESTED. I AM NOT YET SURE WHAT IS
WRONG. I WILL HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE SOON SO I SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE A
DOCTOR WHEN I GET TO OHIO. THEY HAVE A RHEUMATOLOGY DEPARTMENT AT OSU.
Pre-Pregnancy
I was taking Adderall from 1/2006-5/2007, prednisone & continuous birth
control pills from 11/2006--4/2007, plus thyroid medication
I can't help but wonder if these drugs caused my arthritis symptoms,
because I started feeling noticable symptoms in Jan 2007. It got really
cold out and I had serious problems with both of my knees. One went out
on one day, and the other went out a couple days later as I was climbing
the stairs. I was almost certain that the knee problems had something to
do with the prednisone, I don't know why. I had taken a dance course six
months earlier (before starting the birth control and prednisone
regimen) and showed absolutely NO SYMPTOMS OF ARTHRITIS (other than
persistant back pain which I have had since age 24). I discontinued the
prednisone.
However, my symptoms got worse throughout the semester. I was still
taking Adderall and birth control pills. I would stay up for long hours
studying, and my elbows would get SOOO stiff when I was hanging over my
schoolwork. I would have to open and close them to loosen them up, and
sometimes the only thing that would help was lying down.
Then I noticed, when I was *with my husband, that my hips would be
incredibly stiff when I would try to stand up afterwards. My elbows and
wrists would also be stiff . I had never experienced this before in my
life, and I knew there was something wrong... but I attributed most of
it to the Adderall because my eating and sleeping habits were terrible.
I thought that the pain was there because I was staying up to late, not
eating right, overworking myself to do well in school, ETC. I reasoned
that those pains would problably go away when I discontinued the
adderall in the summer.
Pregnancy
In mid-May I got pregnant, although I did not know I was pregnant until
the first week of June. I discontinued the Adderall May 22. During the
second month of pregnancy my arthritis pain got REALLY bad. The joints
in my hands were really sore and I had a hard time getting up from the
floor, propping myself up, ETC. My back pain was horrendous as well, it
hurt worse when I was laying down for long periods of time... Which was
really hard, because I felt so bad that I WANTED to lay down a lot. I
was working a job where I had to stand for long periods of time, and my
knees, hips, back, and ankles would hurt SO BAD from being there. I was
only 2-3 months pregnant and have known people that work up until the
end of their pregnancies, so I didn't understand where the pain was
coming from and why.
Sometime around the 4-5th month of pregnancy, the joint pain in my hands
went away completely. I still had other pains attributed to pregnancy,
but the arthritis completely disappeared. The back pain lingered,
however... but I suppose that is normal considering the enormous belly I
had.
OT: I had several antibiotic resistant bladder infections that were
really bad, and several respiratory infections as well. I also had
pre-eclampsia during the last five weeks, and my thyroid went completely
haywire. I had tachycardia from taking armour thyroid, so had to d/c it
and take synthroid. The adjustment caused me to go from really hyper to
really hypo during the second half of the pregnancy.
Postpartum
I did not notice any of the arthritis symptoms during the first six
weeks or so after delivery. I used a hand pump occasionally to get milk,
and sometime during the second month I noticed that my hands became
stiff while squeezing the hand pump. It got a bit worse, so I just
stopped using the hand pump, but I still didn't notice any other
symptoms. A couple of times I had back pain that was so horrendous that
I tried to stretch to make it go away, but nothing really seemed to
work. It was definitely worse when laying down. I would just attempt to
do "cat/cows" even though the pain was bad, at least stretching offered
*some* relief (but not much). However, this did not happen all the time
and I wasn't having symptoms that were bothersome on a regular basis.
GETTING HIT BY A TRUCK
Then, all of a sudden, about two weeks ago, I had trouble opening my
hands. I felt pain in all of my fingers, and recognized it as arthritis
pain. I broke a finger when I was 12, and afterwards every time the
weather changed I would feel excruciating pain in that finger. Well, now
ALL OF MY FINGERS FELT LIKE THAT. Each joint in each finger hurt like
hell (mainly the thumb, index finger, middle finger, and ring fingers).
The backs of my hands hurt. My wrists also hurt.
I did not understand. Where the hell is this coming from. Why now. And
why won't it go away.
I noticed the pain was really bad in the right index finger and thumb,
because apparently I use those two fingers a LOT.
LITERALLY THREE WEEKS AGO I WAS ABLE TO MASSAGE MY HUSBAND. CHANGE MY
BABY. LIFT A BAG. NOW IT HURTS LIKE HELL TO DO ALL OF THESE THINGS. WHAT
THE HELL IS GOING ON?? I FEEL LIKE I GOT HIT BY A MACK TRUCK AND IT IS
MORE PAINFUL EVERY DAY. SOMETIMES IT HURTS SO BAD THAT I CAN'T EVEN
TALK.
6/8--6/9/2008
I started out having pain in both hands. It was/is pretty symmetrical
but the right thumb, right index finger, and right middle finger hurt
significantly worse at times. In fact, on these days my right index
finger was swollen noticeably larger than the left one (and the right
middle finger was swollen too). I am not sure, but I think it is because
I use them more often. Because, they REALLY hurt when I try to use them
for something! Whenever I start trying to use the left hand instead,
those fingers also start becoming more inflamed and painful.
6/10/2008
Woke up to some of the most horrendous back pain ever. Felt like a bunch
of nerves being pinched or like a rod being shoved in my back, or like
it is being bent too far and then snapped. OUCH. It hurt for several
hours after I woke up. I took ibuprofen for it and it helped a bit. I
had this kind of back pain towards the end of my pregnancy and
attributed it to the heavy weight I was carrying. However I have had it
several times post delivery. Usually from lying down, it is made worse
by lying down.
I am having the joint pain in my hands also. Mainly finger and thumb
joints.
6/11/2008
I felt okay in the morning. I think I took an ibuprofen the night
before, so I was feeling okay. We went to Niko Nikos to eat and my left
elbow started to hurt towards the end of the meal. I thought I must have
been leaning on it but I wasn't. The pain lasted long after we left, it
throbbed for a couple of hours.
Also all of my joints in my hands start to hurt. They start to swell
slightly and become slightly itchy. Kind of hot but not really.
I don't remember anything else.
6/12/2008
Yesterday we went to the social security office, and then we went to
eat. I had an asthma attack after leaving the social security office
though (old building). I think my joints were okay because I don't
remember them hurting while we were out. I know I took an ibuprofen the
night before and in the morning. It seems to help with my symptoms, and
when I miss one I can surely tell.
We were in the grocery store and i was carrying the hand carrier with my
right hand. I switched to the left as to not put too much pressure on
the right and my left hand also started to feel itchy and stiff.
Afterwards, in the car, my hands started to swell.
As soon as we got home from eating I started having severe pain. All of
my joints. Hands, fingers... all joints in my fingers. Wrists. Ankles.
Knees. Feet. It hurts to walk. It hurts to lay down. It hurts all over.
MY joints in my hands are swollen. They are itchy. The parts that hurt
the most have red splotches over them. Not bumps, but splotches over the
inflamed joints. It is really uncomfortable. I took a Vicodin because
that is what I had (I accidentally packed the advil). It helped a
little. I was able to continue packing boxes, as we are moving to Ohio
in less than two weeks.
6/13/2008
I woke up this morning and felt a little out of it. I had some breathing
problems and had to puff my inhaler several
times. My joints felt okay for most of the day, I didn't have to take
anything for them. My ankles feel slightly stiff in the mornings (I
notice this as I am walking around). So does the rest of my body, but I
can deal with it. In the afternoon, when we were out my left elbow
started to hurt again. Really bad, so bad I could not straighten my arm
without feeling tremendous pain. I forced it open and tried opening and
closing it several times to loosen up the joint. But nothing worked.
Then my right elbow started to hurt as well. It became pretty severe. I
kept opening them to keep them from getting stuck. The muscles in my
forearms and shoulders are starting to hurt. They hurt so bad. We went
to the book store, as I am trying to ignore this.
I was looking at books and my arms & elbows are hurting really really
bad. My wrists also started to throb, and so did my hands. However the
elbow and wrist pain was definitey the WORST EVER today, I don't know
what the hell is going on.

Newbie

2007-03-22 22:09:45

Hi...I'm Trish from Alabama. I'm a 34 yo SAHM due to a disability. My
husband was diagnosed with PA 2 years ago and continues to get worse.
I am just wondering if there is anything i can do to help him. I
love him so much and seeing him in pain is killing both of us. I am
partially disabled, so i can only do what I can. Does anyone have any
pain relief suggestions? I'm also looking for any recipes that are

Overwhelmed

2007-03-22 16:11:47

I just recently have gotten diagnosed with Psoriatic Arthritis. My
life has stopped in it's tracks completely. I have had to stop
working because of my heels, toes and legs being in so much pain. I
also had to put school on hold, switch I was only two classes away
from my Master's in Education, and had been admitted already in the
PhD for Education program. The reason for that is because of my
wrists and fingers hurt so bad that I am unable to type all that I
need to for my education.
I do know that I am tired of taking all of these pills already, which
all make me tired all the time. Here is my list of medications:
Celebrex, twice a day Nocro, three times a day, Skelaxin,
three times a day, Zolpidem to put me to sleep at night. I also
take my all purpose vitamin and Omega three. I don't feel that they
are helping with the pain at all, but I was told to wait and see if
they kick in.
Thank you for your time and creating this site. It is very helpful
to me. I am only 34 and feel like my life has been taken away from
me. I will take it back, but that is where my mental state is right
now. Thank you again.
Todd

List down for a week

2007-03-22 05:30:35

I'm not in a position to edit the list for the next week, so I imagine
the list will be on vacation for that period.
Enjoy our time off, hope you all feel well, and I'll "see" you in a week.
Robert Harris
North Jersey

Re: Pain and Nervousness

2007-03-22 05:03:23

When I first started having symptoms years ago I did take anti-
depressants but I haven't in several years. I hate to add another med
again when this only happens about one time a month. I might ask about
the anti-anxiety meds if they can be taken as needed but I'd rather try
other things first. I don't have much knowledge about aromatherapy,
teas or that sort of thing. You mentioned the meditation, I do
remember all those relaxation exercises for childbirth. It would be
worth a try. Thanks for the tip.
Angie
\

papaa

2007-03-21 19:20:16

Hello everyone
I've just received my quarterly edition of the "skin 'n' bones connection"
(great title!), the newsletter of the Psoriasis and Psoriatic Arthritis
Alliance, and thought maybe members of
this group might be interested in the organisation. Although primarily for UK
sufferers of P and PsA, papaa have a new website at www.papaa.org where you can
download much of the information they publish, links and articles, and also
gives details of membership.
Highly recommended!
Best wishes to all
Marcus

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Pain and Nervousness

2007-03-21 16:26:53

Angie: are you on anti-depressants? Many people with this disease are, from
everything I read about it. Might want to check with your doctor if you're not.
Or, you can also ask about anti-anxiety meds. They can be taken on an as-needed
basis; but anti-depressants must be taken every day. You could also try
meditation (deep breathing in a quiet, preferably dark place for 5 to 10 minutes
will help calm you.)
Joanna Hoelscher

Re: Hello From Alaska!

2007-03-21 10:54:47

Hi Kari, I'm new to the group too. Alaska, beautiful place. State
bird is the mosquito right..LOL. I spent 18 months up there at Ft.
Greely. Just thought I would say hi. Brian

Pain and Nervousness

2007-03-21 07:48:14

Does anyone else find they get nervous when they are in more pain than
usual? I do and it bothers me that I do. Today has been a very
painful day and it's probably because I had a ton of activity between
Saturday morning and Monday night. Lot's of running around and driving
in the terrible heat. As the day wears on and the pain doesn't get
better, I find myself getting that nervous feeling. Like I could just
jump right out of my skin. Then I get irritable. I try to warn my
family when this happens and stick to doing something alone (like
reading) to take my mind off of it. Just wondering if anyone else had
something similar and how you deal with it.
Angie

Anyone else wore a back brace for the SI issues

2007-03-21 03:41:03

Hi again. I'm going to be searching for a rheumy soon. Right now I'm
very comfortable with my primary care doctor because my condition
mirrors his somewhat. On my last x-ray some things have changed. I had a
mild case of scoliosis since my teen. The curves were small and not
worth treating. For some reason the curves has increased again. I say
it's from muscle imbalances, but the doctor thinks it may be from the
spondylitis. I started using a brace while driving for relief from the
sacroiliitis I have. Try riding in a truck with this. Kind of like
sitting on top of an out of balance washing machine all day. The brace
has helped me do my job, meaning income is still coming in. But the
doctor wants a bigger brace. A TSLO is being made. Have any of you used
a brace during a flair? I've been told to use the brace until the flair
is under control. Once the pain goes down then I can exercise. Brian

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Hello From Alaska!

2007-03-20 15:26:51

Hi Kari,
Welcome...and trust me, this group understands. Thanks for sharing your story.
K

Re: spondyloarthropathy

2007-03-20 09:01:44

Nicole,
The following is a definition of spondyloarthropathy. Sometimes,
when the doctors can first identify a "category" of arthritis then
later get a more specific diagnosis. The treatments for RA and PA
are very similar.
I would suggest getting that second opinion and maybe even a third.
It can't hurt to see what another rheumy thinks and it might be help
greatly.
The spondyloarthropathies include ankylosing spondylitis, reactive
arthritis (including Reiter's syndrome), psoriatic arthritis,
inflammatory bowel disease-associated spondyloarthropathy, and
undifferentiated spondyloarthropathy. These diseases are linked by
their association with the HLA-B27 gene and by the presence of
enthesitis as the basic pathologic lesion. Additional clinical
features include inflammatory back pain, dactylitis, and extra-
articular manifestations such as uveitis and skin rash. The history
and physical examination are the major diagnostic tools, although
radiographic evidence of sacroiliitis is helpful. Therapeutic options
include nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, sulfasalazine,
methotrexate, and tumor necrosis factor-alpha inhibitors. Early
recognition and appropriate treatment can help to limit disability.
(Am Fam Physician 2004;69:2853-60. Copyright© 2004 American Academy
of Family Physicians.)
Angie

Hello From Alaska!

2007-03-20 07:19:13

Hi All!
My name is Kari, I am 37 yo and live in Juneau, Alaska. I am married
with 1 daughter, 13, stepdaughter 14, stepson 11, and stepson 18 in
the Army, stationed in Hawaii.
This is my story:
I was diagnosed with Juvenile Rheumatoid Arthritis when I was 8 years
old. The doctors didn't do much for me during flare ups, I stayed
active in swimming, dance team, etc. growing up.
When I was 16, I started having problems walking, my ankles were very
weak. I was on the high school dance team, so just thought it was
from the new stress I was adding on. My Senior year in high school,
things got really bad, I couldn't walk without shooting pains from my
feet up my back. We went to Seattle for tests and found that the
cartlidge in my ankles was pretty much destroyed. After a year of
gold shots, cortisone shots directly into the ankles, walking casts,
I had a bi-lateral subtaylor ankle fusion. They broke both of my
ankles, scraped the deteriorated cartilage away, took bone from my hip
to replace the cartilage and fused both my ankles with screws. I was
in a wheel chair for 3 months. I relearned to walk, did lots of
physical therapy and was doing pretty good.
When I was 21 I started getting dandruff, which I never had before,
then the scales came on full force, I figured it was psoriasis
because my dad had been diagnosed with it. By the time I was 23 I
started getting more areas, of psoriasis, didn't see a dr just went
with it. When I was 29 my psoriasis got really bad, head, ears,
elbows, knees, back, stomach, ankles. Doctors said stress could cause
a big flare up like this and it made sense. I was going through a
nasty divorce.
I was a single mother for 5 years, met my first boyfriend from when I
was 14 and we got married in 2005. The past year, my arthritis has
come on full force, along with the psoriasis. Oh, I was officially
diagnosed by a Rheumy in Scottsdale Arizona in Jan. 2005. She put me
on MTX pills,2.5, 8/week, plus some topical cream.
December 2007 my arthritis was so bad that I was bedridden for almost
a month. February 2008, my husband and I went to another rheumy in
Portland, Oregon. Mind you, there are no rheumy's close to me in
Alaska so to get good medical help we have to spend a lot of money on
travel. This doctor discovered the damage in my hands, feet and lower
back. I'm now on MTX injections once a week, Ketoprofen, and just
started Humira injections 6 weeks ago, I get my 3rd one tonight. My
husband is awesome, he does all my injections, because I'm a whimp.
Actually, I know I'm not a whimp because I deal with the pain of
arthritis on a daily basis. My psoriasis is looking lots better but
the pain is not better yet.
I work fulltime for the state of Alaska as a programmer. I also have
a part-time business with Slumber Parties.
I look forward to chatting with you. I'm having a really tough day
today and guess I just needed to share my story. Thanks for reading.
Kari

Re: Newbie with questions

2007-03-20 01:19:58

Hi, Susan,
It is very hard to say whether a mild case might stay that way. Each
person is so different. Personally, I have had remissions and flare
ups. My rheumy tells me the goal is finding the right combination of
drugs to force remission of symptoms. When one of my symptoms improves
all the others tend to do the same. When my joints are better the
fatigue is better. DMARDs have helped me achieve that. Improving my
sleep by better overall disease control, using splints for troublesome
joints and using other drugs for better sleep have all helped with the
fatigue. Hope you find what works for you.
Angie

Hi, new member

2007-03-19 14:11:27

Hi to everyone,
Just introducing myself having just joined the group. I'm female, 53
years old and was diagnosed with psoriatic arthritis in 2005 although
looking back on it the warning signs had been there since my 20s. Had
severe problems and medication didn't seem to be helping, eventually
ending up on MST tablets. Then, in 2007, my rheumatologist put me on
methotrexate and also diagnosed avascular necrosis of both hips (late
stage). NHS delays meant waiting until this year to see an
orthopaedic surgeon who mercifully operated almost immediately
(within 4 weeks!!) and gave me the gift of two total hip replacements
over a 6 week period. I'm now fully mobile once more and am just
about to return back to my work as a HGV driver. My methotrexate has
been upped slightly and the arthritis is now under good control
(jointly taken with naproxen tabs and folic acid and paracetamol).
I'm completely off the morphine slow release tablets to control the
terrible pain I was in and feeling much more like my old self (except
I have 2 stone of ugly fat to lose because of the enforced inactivity
before my hip-ops took place). I'm hoping things will remain good for
several years now but after the past 3 years I worry about the
constant threat of deterioration. I really don't want any more
operations or sickness downtime!!
"millerbackwell" <cgunn@...

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] a call to arms

2007-03-19 09:48:35

Really interesting. I've lived in the nw at sea level or a little above and
psoriasis has been minimal. Vacation in Florida and I'm at sea level. Also high
humidity is the norm and I've never had it too bad. I go on road trip to east
side of state, high elevation, across mountain range, and I have a flare to beat
all flares. I thought it was stress of trip........ maybe not.....casey

Re: Any tips for meds, new member

2007-03-19 04:34:31

Hi Brian,
As far as the anti-inflamatories, there are several out there that
your rheumatologist can prescribe. I can't recall all the names, but
I know Voltaren is one. HOWEVER.... while You may need to take anti-
inflamatories and steroids for TEMPORARY relief, These will not be
addressing the main problem, your disease. In order to have long
lasting relief from PA You must address your disease with DMARDS or
biologic drugs, like Methotrexate, Enbrel, Humira.
While there could possibly be other options, these are the most
proven fighters of PA. If Your aren't seeing a rheumatologist, I
suggest you see one very soon. If you haven't been officially
diagnosed with PA, Talk to your rheumy, it seems like a possibility.
THEN discuss treatment options.
Stay Well,
David

Humira financial assistance?

2007-03-19 00:29:45

Hey Y'all, I'm new to all of this so please be patient with me.. I
have had severe PA for 3 years now. The only thing that works is
Humira every 2 weeks. My insurance has changed and will not cover but
a portion of it now. Are there any programs that any of you know of
that will assist in paying for this? Thanks, John

Re: Sleep problems to Joanna

2007-03-18 17:10:04

Thanks for the suggestion Joanna, but Ive been on it before and had
problems. I did gain about 10 lb, but seemed to stop there and it came off
about 2 weeks after I stopped Lyrica. The main problem I had with it was
severe swelling in my feet and hands. My feet were the worse, and I am
still bothered by it occasionally, but not nearly as bad as before.
I hated to stop it because I think it did help my Fibro over all. If I can
get some of my other problems under control, I may attempt to try it again.
Im sure glad to hear it is helping so many people.
Take care, and thanks again,
Fran

Re: New member

2007-03-18 12:48:48

Brian, please ask for a referral to a rheumatologist. They are best
able to diagnose and treat PA (which it sure sounds like you have!)
and they are accustomed to advocating for you with the insurance
companies also.
Off topic, my dad was a long-haul trucker back in the day before
people owned their own rigs. He loved it his life!
regards,
sherry z

Any tips for meds, new member

2007-03-18 01:32:37

Hi again. I made my first post trying to give a history for all of
you. I can't take ibuprofen at all. I have ulcerative colitis as well.
The psoriatic arthritis is causing major SI pain when I work. I really
need some advise on other anti inflamatories I can buy over the
counter. Brian

Re: Unintentional Offense....

2007-03-18 01:27:54

That is what we are here for Sarah. LOL It feels good just to be able
type out our feelings, knowing we don't need an answer or a solution
just a "reading eye".
Hang in the Girl!!
Dotti

RE: [PsoriaticArthritis] Re:Sleep problems

2007-03-17 14:48:32

If you think about it, PA causes inflammation -- and inflammation of the
throat can cause sleep apnea.
So it makes sense that sleep apnea might be linked to PA.
Patty

Re:2nd day after Humira injection

2007-03-17 10:47:17

Everyone reacts a little differently to the Humira from what I understand,
anywhere from a matter of days to weeks. Though I'm really glad to hear that it
is so positive for DH so far. I've been taking Humira for almost a month now.
I think it took me about 3 weeks to notice a difference. I haven't taken any of
my pain medication for my PA since going on the Humira. I hope DH continues to
have success with the Humira.
Rachel

RE: [PsoriaticArthritis] Unintentional Offense....

2007-03-17 09:07:22

Sarah --
I'm not sure someone without PA can really understand what we go through. I
think you just have to vent here -- and hope that down the road your family
"gets" it.
Interestingly, one of my best friends got cancer this year -- and when she
was going through chemo/radiation she ended up with severe joint pain. She
called me up and cried because she said for the first time she understood
what I live with daily. She felt so bad and couldn't understand how I
handled it. Luckily, she's now in remission -- and her joint pain is gone.
But now, I know that when I'm hurting badly, I have one friend who can
really commiserate with how much I hurt.
So vent all you want! There's plenty of people here who understand how
scary PA can be! And we really do feel for you!
Patty

Re: 2nd day after Humira injection

2007-03-16 23:02:48

Patty - try taking Benadryl before your injection and another later
that day. That has eliminated my injection site reaction completely!
best,
sherry z

Re:Sleep problems

2007-03-16 20:10:01

Dear Sherry Z,
I could have easily written your email. Ive had a sleep disorder now for
years and it first started about the time I was first diagnosed with Fibro,
around 25 years ago. It has only gotten worse with time. For a while,
before I developed PA I took Elavil, which does let you sleep through the
whole night without waking up. But like all these drugs they have side
effects and weight gain was the major one for me at that time. I finally
stopped it because of the weight gain and even though I didnt lose much, I
didnt gain anymore either.
Right now I take a Xanax and two Benedryl at bedtime. Those will normally
put me asleep for at least 3-4 hours. I always wake up at least twice and I
normally use the bathroom, and then read for a short while. If Im not
asleep in an hour I take two more Benedryl and that will usually help. Ive
tried so many of the sleeping pills and they all have side effects. Ambien,
made me walk in my sleep and you can really get into trouble on that drug,
plus you constantly need more of it to keep it working, several others left
me with a horrible taste in my mouth the next day, or a hung over feeling.
So far this is the best combination I can find. It doesnt work perfectly,
but its better than being up all night and then cat napping all day.
I have do doubt that sleep disorders go with PA. I also have sleep apnea
and I remember when I mentioned it in this group once, many people responded
to it. So it must be linked together. I just read yesterday where diabetes
gets worse with a sleep disorder and that explains why Ive been having
trouble controlling diabetes. I developed it from being on predinsone for
so long, but Im at the point now where I cant go without predinsone
completely. Predinsone also disturbs your sleep. Ive also noticed my pain
level really increases without a good nights sleep and sometimes even just a
hour nap during the day will help that a little. I also use a sound machine
to drown out the sound of my husbands snoring, since he wakes me up way too
many times a night. So there are things that help, but I havent found
a cure that works perfectly yet.
Good luck and I would discuss it with your doctor. He might be able to come
up with something that works for you or at least helps some. Take care.
Fran in Florida

Unintentional Offense....

2007-03-16 13:45:40

Hey group,
I just need to vent a bit.
I am a 27 year old with PA (which some of you know) with symptoms which come and
go. I am recently dealing with a bout which has been affecting me for about 2
years and includes Iritis and some small specs of Psoriasis.
Although I'm dealing with fatigue, shuffling my schedule and changing my diet
around to help my joints stay inflammation free; I agreed to babysit my nieces
and nephew once a week for the summer. One of my nieces had pink eye and no one
told me before I went over there and I was exposed. From what I've known,
Iritis and Pink Eye do not work well together. The pink eye re-inflames the
iritis--which is almost gone.
I trusted that she was contagious--but she wasn't. Luckily I haven't gotten
it, but I feel taken advantage of. I tried to talk to my sister in law--but I'm
home from that conversation now and I feel really brushed off. Like because you
can't see my illness then it can't be that serious--but I could loose my sight.
(I know I won't, but still...)
I have no idea what the point of this e-mail is since I'm not looking for
support or sympathy--I just need to vent. I just needed to tell someone that
I'm pissed off and hurt and want to run away and cry because I can't express
myself any other way.
So, those of you that read this--thanks. I'm glad to have someplace to write
down these bits of my life where they won't hurt or offend anyone else.
Sarah

RE: [PsoriaticArthritis] 2nd day after Humira injection

2007-03-16 05:50:07

With Humira, I get minor injection site redness or swelling for a day or
two. Nothing major or that irritating.
Typically doesn't kick in fully for at least six weeks. I had surgery on my
knee in December -- and it kicked off a terrible flare.
I started back on Humira about five shots ago and it hasn't kicked in fully
yet. And that's in combination with methotrexate.
So in short, don't count on major relief for at least 4-6 weeks.
Patty

Re: Sleep problems

2007-03-16 00:27:23

Thanks for the info! I take Tramadol at night, per rheumys
insistence. But that is not helping at all with the waking problem.
I've tried melatonin to no avail - now I see why. I really hate to
add another drug - don't we all feel like we take too many already?
I'm not sure which is worse at this point - being fatigued or taking
more meds. I will definitely speak to my rheumy next month.
thanks again,
sherry z

Re: Please help! Mom has unidentifiable arthritis!

2007-03-15 22:33:46

We are in Houston, TX.
She is seeing a rheumatologist, who says it is one of the worst cases
she has seen. She cannot identify the type, it is NOT RA and probably
not Lupus. The doctor has tried all kinds of treatment and it is
getting worse. She suggested for my mom to get a second opinion. My
mom is 52 years old.
My moms doc thought it was autoimmune originally, because she has a
couple of other autoimmune problems. Now she is thinking it is
aggressive inflammatory osteoarthritis?
I am also starting to have arthritis in the joints of my hands, and
toes. Sometimes it is bad in my knees and hips. It was worse before I
got pregnant, now my son is four months it is getting bad again. I am
29, it started when I was 27 and is progressively getting worse. I do
not have health insurance so I cannot receive treatment.
"OM Shanti" <nk_laurie@...

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Newbie with questions

2007-03-15 05:23:23

I don't think anyone can predict with accuracy the course of this disease; but
if you are not getting the proper treatment, i.e. DMARDS or other drugs
specifically aimed at reducing the physical damage caused by PA, you are likely
at risk for more pain and possibly irreversible joint damage. You are probably
not a candidate for the biologics at this point but the DMARDs, like MTX, have
been used for years and any serious side effects are reversible. I would
strongly urge you to talk to your rheumatologist to get advice.
I assume that you have had a full workup and are not anemic; but I was anemic
when I was diagnosed with PA about a year ago and anemia does go hand in hand
with PA - especially at the beginning. It went away with treatment. Another
thing to ensure your doctor has checked is Vitamin D deficiency. Fatigue,
however, does go hand in hand with PA and the extent to which it goes away
depends on how severe your disease is, what DMARD you take and how well you
respond to it.
Good luck but please don't try to continue a regimen of just using NSAIDs. They
only mask the pain from any potential damage that could be occurring.
Joanna Hoelscher

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Epidural Injection Update

2007-03-15 00:21:49

Please keep us posted on how well this works for you - and for how long. I know
so few people who have really gotten relief from epidurals that I'm really
curious. Would love to hear a success story!
Joanna Hoelscher

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Sleep problems and Ambien CR

2007-03-14 18:34:41

I've had sleep problems for years and at one point discussed Ambien CR with my
internist. She said her patients reported mixed results with many saying it
didn't work any better than Ambien. (She says it was a "new" formula developed
only because their regular Ambien was about to go generic.) I, myself, tried it
and didn't find it very effective, at all! So, don't worry about being able to
wake up in an emergency. That would be the least of your problems, given my
experience.
Joanna Hoelscher

2nd day after Humira injection

2007-03-14 18:02:20

My DH took his first injection yesterday. Today he told me if
yesterday his pain was a 10...today it's a 6 or 7!! I'm so happy and
excited! Does Humira work that quick? He's been in pretty bad pain
for about 3 weeks.
What has your experience been with Humira? Thanks for any replies. :)
"fit2bfit2003" <aerobicfit@...

Newbie with questions

2007-03-14 11:02:08

Hello Folks,
I am a relatively new member and have been lurking and learning
for about 8 months, since I was diagnosed. Thank you all for sharing
your stories, I feel I am much more informed than had I just read the
medical literature.
I am 47 years old and have what I consider a moderate case of P
(mostly confined to my scalp) and a mild case of PA (only 2 misshapen
finger joints). I have been using NSAIDs to control stiffness and
am trying to hold off on the DMARDs and biologics for as long as
possible. The fatigue though is the most troublesome symptom for me.
I have 2 questions that you folks might be able to help me with.
Do mild cases of PA tend to remain mild?
Do the DMARDs and or biologics help alleviate the fatigue?
Thanks in advance for any answers you can offer.
Susan

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Sleep problems

2007-03-14 02:42:30

Sherry, for me the issue is pain. Like you I used to wake up after an hour or
two, but when I told my rheumy she put me on hydrocodone for the night. While
the hydrocodone is working I sleep, but when it wears off (after about six
hours) I wake up. I've taken to bringing it to bed with me and taking it right
before I fall asleep rather than with all the other night meds, which I take
before I lay down to read.
Unlike you I don't fall asleep easily. I have a prescription for Ambien but I
don't like to take it regularly so I limit it to nights when I =must= be awake
early. On some other nights I use over-the-counter melatonin lozenges.
Melatonin is one of the hormones that regulates sleep cycles, but again I don't
like to take those very often.
Both Ambien and melatonin help one =get= to sleep but don't help people =keep=
sleeping, so neither of these would be of much help to you, as you don't have a
problem with the former. To address this issue Aventis, the company that makes
Ambien, has come out with a time-release formula they claim will help people
not only get to sleep but stay that way, Ambien CR.
Personally I am not interested in the product because I'm afraid of not being
able to wake up in the case of emergencies or the like. The reality is that
Aventis is unlikely to come out with a product that would force people to sleep
through emergencies, but I'm not going to test it. Theoretically Merck would
not produce an NSAID that increased the likelihood of heart attacks, yet many
of us took Vioxx for years. So I'm going to stay away from Ambien CR, but if
you think it's what you need you should speak to your doctor about it.
Finally, sleeping positions are likely a problem for many of us. In addition to
the arthritis I have bursitis in my shoulder and hip, an impingement in my
right hip, and three herniated vertebrae in my lumbar spine. All that probably
sounds more fun than it is, and I suspect many of us have more than one physical
problem that inhibits good sleeping patterns. Anyway, no particular sleep
position works for me, so I wake up for very short periods to shift about, then
I'm back to sleep again (or so my wife tells me). I don't know what that does
for my REM sleep, but there you go.
RA Harris
North Jersey

Sleep problems

2007-03-14 00:09:29

I know a lot of us have difficulty sleeping, but I'm posting to ask
how common this is and is it just caused by the pain or is it another
part of PA itself?
I typically fall asleep easily but awaken within 1-2 hours. I fall
back asleep easily most nights but again awaken within 1-2 hours.
This continues all night long. I don't feel like I've gotten a good
sound sleep in several years! I don't think this light sleeping is
good for overall health.
One thing I do notice is that whichever side I'm laying on, the
shoulder and hip on that side hurts when I wake up. When I turn to
the other side, the pain lessons in a few minutes and I'm able to
fall asleep only to wake up an hour or two later with that side's
shoulder and hip hurting. Is it just the pain waking me up?
Should I ask for a sleeping aid? What are others taking to help you
sleep?
thanks,
sherry z

Re: Hello - I'm new

2007-03-13 19:58:32

Megan
Welcome I am sorry to hear you are in so much pain I was diagnosed a
little over 2 years ago so I understand what you are going through. I
have had many ups and downs in that time but overall I think the meds
are helping somewhat. I also live in a house with stairs a bi-level so
I can not leave or come home with having to use the stairs. There are
days when that staircase looks like Mt Everest. On bad days I have
learned to do multiple things at a time to ovoid the stairs as much as
possible. I wish I would have had a crystal ball 10 years ago when I
bought my house and I told my real estate agent not to show me any
ranch houses. Good luck and take care.
Linda from NJ
dx's PSA 3/2006 RX's enbrel MXT folic acid vicodin tramadol and levoxyl

My DH started Humira today (long)

2007-03-13 06:21:12

Hi I'm new here. My husband was being treated for Psoriasis in January
by a Derm. The Derm asked him is he had any joint problems. He didn't.
Then a month later after receiving topical spray for the skin he
started having bad pain in his shoulders and hips.
About 3 weeks ago we went to the Rhuemy. She wanted him to use Humira
or Enbrel. We chose Humira since the injections are once every 2
weeks. (DH travels for business some)
Anyway..What can we expect? When will his pain start easing up? He's
in pretty bad pain. He's only 57 and is very athletic. (loves golf and
working out)
He has no nail problems..no problems with any other joints except hips
and shoulders. His back feels stiff. (he says) When he turns his
head..he turns his shoulders too. So..probably his neck has it as well.
How can we be sure this is PsA? I'm scared because there's cancer all
in his family. His mom (Ovarian) His dad died this past Dec with lung
cancer. (dead 4 weeks after diagnosed) His brother (age 36) died of
Mesotheleoma (asbestos cancer), Our grand daughter (Leukemia) she's in
remission. (thank GOD)
So..you can see my concern.
I'm glad I found this forum. Looking forward to sharing and receiving
information. :) Take care. :)

Hello - I'm new

2007-03-13 05:58:35

Hello Everyone!
I look forward to getting to know you all. Unfortunately, I have
gotten to know PsA very well. I had a sausage toe for 2 1/2 years
before the other joints (knees, ankles, shoulders, low back, neck,
wrists, hips, hands and feet) went nuts in December. It hit me like
a Mack Truck. I saw a Rheumatologist in February and started Enbrel
in March. After three weeks, I saw improvement and got SO excited.
Then, about three weeks ago, the PsA broke through again and now I'm
on MTX, a large amount of Prednisone and Enbrel. I'm having a tough
time accepting this and cannot find solid pain management. I really
want to work to accomodate this disease in a way that allows me to
live better and to do the things I need and want to do. However, I
live in a smaller community with limited resources and feel that I am
pretty much on my own. As of now, I can't sit for more than 10
minutes and can't stand or walk for more than 5. I've always been a
person who would just bulldoze through things. I can't bulldoze my
way through this and am at a loss. I know many of you have been
through this and I would love any advice or practical tips. For
example, I can't do stairs and I live in a 2story house and
have to go up stairs to get in = that's a problem and I've always
thought that where there is a problem there is solution. I know that
eventually we will hit on the combination of meds that will help -
but that seems far away. Thanks for listening - again, I look
forward to getting to know you.
Megan

Please help! Mom has unidentifiable arthritis!

2007-03-13 04:23:27

It is completely destroying her joints. She has no joints left in her
index fingers, they are entirely fused together. Doctor has ruled out
RA but assumed it was autoimmune and has been using chemo-like IV
drugs on her for over a year. It has gotten MUCH MUCH worse.
Now the doctor thinks it is inflammatory arthritis and is going to d/c
the IVs soon, and start her on antibiotics contintuously. And maybe
steroids. My mom doesn't want to take steroids, but isn't chemo worse??
Has anyone heard of a case like this, where doctors could not identify
the type of arthritis, and treatment has not helped.
Thanks,
Nicole

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] PA without psoriasis

2007-03-12 15:43:42

The psoriasis part is very confusing. I had no signs of Psoriasis when I was
diagnosed with PA, but I did have a periodic breakout of red spots that I
thought was a rash around my ankles which I treated with an ointment which
seemed to help. Also, I had some unidentified tiny bumps in my scalp which
turned out to be Psoriasis. The only way I finally identified the Psoriasis was
a scaly patch on the top of my hand.However during this period my PA was? quite
active and I have already had the joints in my right hand disintegrate.My feet,
hands and knees are also? affected.My toes have become quite ugly. I would
advise you to keep an eye on any red spots that itch far more than they should.
God Bless and stay well.
Walt

PA without psoriasis

2007-03-12 09:17:53

Hello everyone I am new to your group and was hoping to find some
answers. I have been treated for what I thought was RA for the past
ten years and have been having some difficulty with meds and allergic
reactions. Today I went to see my old Rheumy who had originally
treated me before moving on to another hospital. I was hoping that he
would be able to help me get this flair under control. Long story
short, during the conversation today he told me that I had tested
negative for RA but that I had seronegative inflammatory arthritis,
HLA-B27 positive. He said he felt I had Psoriatic Arthritis. This
confuses me because I have never had Psoriasis. Is is possible to have
PA and never have psoriasis?
Any info would be appreciated. Thanks for listening
Nancy

Re: PA without psoriasis

2007-03-12 08:00:37

My brother and I both have psoriatic arthritis without psoriasis. It
happens, but rare. If it makes it any easier, the treatment for PA is
almost identical to RA. Sometimes they are very difficult to
distinguish, especially in a patient without psoriasis and negative
RA. If it helps, I have had PA for about 6 months and finally started
Remicade 3 weeks ago. After two infusions I'm completely off
prednisone and Mobic. My rheumy hopes to get me down to only Remicade
and methotrexate soon. I feel great! Not like before PA but better
than I have felt in months. Very little to now side effects.
Good luck. I hope you find something to help.
"Shelley Sheridan" <sksherid@...

Re: Here I am again!

2007-03-11 20:44:26

Seabreeze - I'm glad your daughter is on her way to getting better!!!
I've heard of the antibiotic therapy and would be happy to try it
myself. However, my rheumy says that it is not likely to help, that
there is no evidence that PA is caused by bacteria. Best thing to do
is ask the rheumy - some are willing to prescribe low dose
antibiotics to see whether they will help.
best,
sherry z

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Meds and so forth

2007-03-11 20:42:55

I take Arava for the joints?and Hydrocodone for the pain. The Arava has done a
decent job for me but I have been in the past on Humira, Prednisone and
Methotrexate, With Prednisone my appetite went nuts and I gained almost 40
pounds. Since I weaned off it,I have lost the weight and I feel better.The pain
is worse but I am trying to wait till it?gets very bad before I request more
medsI found your letter to be thoughtful and informative.
Hope you are painfree and walking well.
Walt

Meds and so forth

2007-03-11 17:18:40

Dear David and all,
I'm sure we can all respect the worries, fears, concerns, etc. when it comes to
making a decision on meds, etc. Why wouldn't we, after all?
I will tell you all, I have been around the barn, so to speak with this disease
and RA since I was in high school in the late 60's. I have been told everything
from soup to nuts. I had my first rheumatologist tell me I would probably be in
a wheel chair within 5 years - that was in about 1975. Since then I have had a
second child in 1979, who is of course grown now. I have worked part time at 2
secretarial positions since the mid 90's. I am now retired (thank you God!).
Yes, I have used a wheelchair when I go to places like the mall or zoo, etc. I
now own an electric scooter for such things. I am active, though I do take very
good care of me. I am walking for the first time in years; not long distances by
normal standards, but for me -- very long.
Now, that being said, I have been on MTX since about 1987. When I first started
it, my liver enzymes kind of jumped, and my doc took me off it. At that time, I
think I was taking an NSaid also. My pain was pretty bad. My kids were young,
and I was keeping the house, etc. After a reasonably short time, I was able to
get back on MTX as my enzymes went back to normal. At this point I take 10 2.5
pills once a week. I have no side effects from it. I am on 2 shots of enbrel
per week. Over the past 2 years I have been able to drop my pred for the first
time in 20 years from 10 mg a day to 6. It is my plan to dump the evening 1 mg
by the fall.
I have had multiple orthopedic surgeries - knees, fingers, wrist, etc. So you
see what I mean?
I know I sound kind of snooty with this e-mail. Please, don't take it that way.
It is just my way of saying, I have pretty much done it all. And so can everyone
- in their own time, and own way.
I feel very fortunate to have the rheumy I do. He has kept me moving since 1984,
and we are very good friends. We served together on the Board of Directors of
the NM Chapter of the Arthritis Foundation in the 1980's and 1990's, until
National closed it. I've been a Self Help leader and peer counselor.
So, let me sum up my decision to use the above drugs -- and I completely
understand it is a very personal choice. I had had it with the pain. My rheumy
bugged me about Enbrel for at least a year before I agreed to try it. As far as
the prednisone goes, I have tried for years to cut it back and/or get off it. He
didn't just allow me to go on and on. I couldn't do it. I decided if it
shortened my life, at least I would have had a decent quality of life. So far,
so good.
Other than the very beginning with the mtx I have had no problems with it. I
have my blood monitored every 2 mo faithfully. My doc is retiring in about 2
years. My gift to him is that I plan to be off of the prednisone by then.
Please don't think I don't hurt - I do -- right now, but it is my belief that my
decision to take the risk to try the big guns has made my life soo much better.
To all facing the decision of what to take, use, etc...Do your research and then
go forward as you need to.
Hang in. If I can do it, anyone can.
And please forgive my rambling -- I am just new to this group, so am still
settling in with stuff.
SeabreezeMomG

Re:Fibromyalgia... FYI

2007-03-11 02:47:21

Dear June,
I just wanted to thank you to taking the time to post all the info about
Fibromyalgia. So many people and some doctors are still ignorant of just
what it is and how it can make you feel. This was very easy to read and
even though I have read this doctors book on Fibro, it never hurts to hear
from him again. He was one of the very first doctors to ever to write about
Fibro and one of the few who refused to ignore it or call it something else.
He was my hero when his first book came out, but I havent read anything
lately from him. Your email has got me considering buying a new book from
him since so much has changed since he first wrote about Fibro.
Ive had it now for 25 years or more and my daughter who developed it at age
12, has had it for almost 12 years. She has suffered terribly, but hasnt
given up. She just graduated from college, which wasnt easy for her, but I
m so proud of her. So many people give up on college and they dont have
anything even wrong with them. Its amazing though she still ran into
ignorant people who didnt understand the disease and refused to learn.
Anyway, others were terrific, so its all who you run into in life.
Thanks again for all the great info.
Sincerely,
Fran Mishler-- trying to stay cool in hot, hot Florida.

Here I am again!

2007-03-10 23:16:59

Dear friends,
A couple of days ago, I posted my first note regarding my daughter
and potential diagnosis of PA. Well, she had her appt. this morning
with a new rheumy, and she was indeed diagnosed with "probable PA".
He looked at her history, her hands, toes, spine, legs, etc, and
along with my story, felt that it was most likely PA.
He has ordered lab and Xrays, which she will have asap. He felt her
disease was extremely active at this time. She will do lab monthly
and will see him in 2 mo.
He has given her a burst of prednisone for 4 weeks, along with MTX - I
think 6 pills a week. He is hopeful that by the time she is done
with the prednisone, the MTX will have kicked in.
She can't move her wrists, her dip joints on both hands are swollen,
red, and hot. Her toe joints are bad, her feet hurt.....etc....
I am pleased with the initial attempt at getting this under control.
At least in a day or so she will be able to move a bit and begin
gentle range of motion exercises. And it should help her mental
status. She was so relieved that this new doc didn't blow her off,
as we all know happens. And she really liked him.
She has a 4 yr old and an 16 mo old, who isn't quite walking. She
manages a JoAnn fabric store. Her husband is a dear and is also a
retail manager. They went together this morning, and I think her
husb finally is beginning to get it. Poor guy.
I find myself wondering how my mother coped when it hit me at 23. It
must have broken her heart to see me so sick, you know?
So that's my report for now. But I do have a question???
Have any of you heard of antibiotic therapy for psoriatic arthritis?
I have read of the studies of using them to treat RA, but am not
sure about PA....I have a friend who is bugging me about her using
antibiotics, and I don't think they are useful are they?
Good chatting,
SeabreezeMomG

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Here I am again!

2007-03-10 17:31:50

Yes, I am right now on the AP program. I do have RA, PsA and Dermatomyositis. It
really helps.
Eva

Re: [PsoriaticArthritis] Time for Meds

2007-03-10 07:35:31

Well I have also been off meds for many years. I had been pain free for over 2
1/2 years after joint replacement in 3 fingers. About 2 weeks ago I have
experience my PA's return. When my PA started 9 years ago it was always on my
left side. Unfortunately it is on both sides now. I can't move my right arm up
and down without pain. My feet, ankles, and knees hurt, and one toe has swelled
up.
I finally decided to see my doctor and she prescribed celebrex. I am trying it
out.
I was always afraid to try methotrexate. I had been on Sulfasalazine years ago
which didn't help.
Anyhow is anyone on Celebrex? What kind of results did you see?
Thanks
Rita

Fibromyalgia... FYI

2007-03-10 04:44:29

This is an article that is on one of the Fibromyalgia sites that was
published last week. Reading all the emails from many who have it and
are also I like to read a lot online and continue to see what is out
there
I really am very thankful for the internet and the information and
support it has given me all these years being ill
I was surprised when my doctor told me that it is not uncommon to see
them together ( PA and RA also have fibromyalgia) and that I learned I
had another disease was devastating The good news is they are
learning more and more about it all the time
I ind this group the best for education and growth and also the tolerance
I am not on line as much as would like so I am not able to contribute
as much as I would like.. Especially with two diseases that sometime
effect me separately and also together at times
below is some information:
I belong to a couple fibro groups that help me stay informed...
Many conditions can lead to permanent changes in the pain transmission
mechanism and result in chronic pain that overwhelms the body's pain
defense mechanisms. One such condition is Fibromyalgia.
Fibromyalgia may not cause destruction along the pain pathways as
other conditions I have mentioned can [rheumatoid arthritis, carpal
tunnel syndrome, shingles, multiple sclerosis, for example]. However,
Fibromyalgia does cause chronic abnormal changes along all the pathway
components and this results in chronic pain via both peripheral (from
skin, muscles and nerves) and central (from spinal cord and brain)
neurological mechanisms.
The end result of Fibromyalgia's abnormal changes appears to be a
state of pain amplification that cause severe generalized pain.
Fibromyalgia is ultimately a disease of amplified pain.
Dr. Robert Bennett has written and presented excellent information
that explains why we hurt with Fibromyalgia (e.g., "Emerging Concepts
in the Neurobiology of Chronic Pain: Evidence of Abnormal Sensory
Processing in Fibromyalgia," Mayo Clinic Proceedings). If we trace the
pain signals through the various parts of the pain pathway (from the
nociceptors - or specialized pain nerve endings to the nerves to the
spinal cord to the brain) in people with Fibromyalgia, we find various
abnormalities along the way. Many studies have shed light on different
points along the complete pain pathway.
I want to briefly summarize some of these different abnormalities and
possible problems encountered by Fibromyalgia pain signals on the path
to the brain.
NOCICEPTORS - Pain originates from the nociceptors
Trauma is a common trigger of Fibromyalgia. Tissue injury - damage to
the muscles and soft tissues activates the nociceptors. Some studies
have suggested that microscopic injury occurs in specific parts of the
muscles (for those who want the medical names: muscle spindles,
intrafusal fibers, and calcium pumps).
Localized tissue injury probably activates arachidonic acid (a
biological protein), which turns into "bad" prostaglandans (called
Cox-II prostaglandins), and cause inflammation and pain.
In addition to trauma, autoimmune factors may be another pain nerve
activator. Perhaps autoimmune processes create compounds which act as
irritants and activate the nociceptors chronically to the point where
they become "permanently" sensitized and irritated. As a result,
biochemical, hormonal, and red blood cell changes occur that interfere
with the cells' ability to receive adequate supplies of oxygen,
glucose, and other nutrients. Blood flow, energy formation, and the
cells' electrical and neurological harmonies are all disrupted.
Since the nociceptors remain "faulty," the electrical and neurological
balance remains abnormal, and nociceptors continue to be activated.
Pain-producing neurotransmitters are released and accumulate as long
as the nociceptors stay activated at the peripheral level (skin and
muscles, especially).
These persistent pain signals we experience may be interpreted as an
itching, burning, swelling, or tingling at one end of the spectrum, or
at the other end knife-stabbing, burning, or throbbing. One
nociceptor can signal different pain signals and sensations depending
on its level of irritation the more irritated it is, the more severe
the pain.
These changes can become permanent and cause the nerves to become
sensitized to the point where they are easily activated to send pain,
even in the absence of any noxious stimulus.
In other words, persistent pain signals can spontaneously arise from
peripheral nerve endings and bombard the rest of the pain pathway. So,
instead of waiting for outside stimulation such as trauma, pressure,
temperature, or touch to signal the nociceptors, these nociceptors
send pain signals on their own, without any outside help. This
"spontaneous" pain is what we complain about the most!
NERVES
The nerves, especially the sensory nerves and the autonomic nerves,
"wonder what is happening" because they are getting bombarded by all
of these signals from the nociceptors. At first, they try to diminish
these painful signals by using accommodation and gate mechanisms.
However, the signals persist and they, too, undergo a sensitization
process. They become hypersensitized and react with an exaggerated
response instead of a normal or diminishing response (accommodation).
Now we get even more pain, numbness, swelling, burning, and other
sensations.
Some of the hypersensitization may be mediated by nerve growth factor,
which has been found in higher levels in Fibromyalgia. A high nerve
growth factor may indicate the nerves are trying to regenerate or
repair themselves. But instead of repairing the nerves so they act
normal again, the opposite seems to happen. Nerve growth factor is
probably enhancing the nerves' abilities to transmit pain to the
spinal cord. More pain results, not less.
SPINAL CORD Amplification, wind-up, allodynia, Substance P,
generalization
At the spinal cord level, the Fibromyalgia begins to take control.
It is here that additional changes occur to perpetuate the pain and
spread it to different levels. When pain generators first start
firing, the spinal cord pain processing centers may act at first like
a dry sponge and easily soak up all the signals. Our bodies may have
many pain generators at any given time, but if they are slowly and
intermittently firing, drug sponges can soak up the signals and not
cause any bothersome symptoms.
From time to time there may be an acute exacerbation of a problem
leading to a lot of pain signals being generated, and if a lot of pain
signals are dumped at once into the spinal cord sponge, only a little
bit gets absorbed and a lot gets passed through and perceived as acute
pain.
In Fibromyalgia, however, the different pain generators continue to
send signals and eventually the dry sponges becomes a wet sponge and
it can't soak up any more. The additional oncoming continuous signals
will spill over the wet sponge, and this leads to persistent pain.
The two main changes that occur at the spinal cord include:
* Pain amplification (by specialized nerves called NMDA receptors)
* And loss of pain filtering (by the diffuse noxious inhibitory
control system).
Spinal cord nerves are bombarded by continuous stimulation from the
peripheral nerves, causing a progressive increase in electrical
signals to be sent up to the brain. This phenomenon is called
"wind-up," and is the neurological mechanism for the amplification of
pain.
Once this wind-up phenomenon occurs, a central sensitization results
in which various types of sensory signals - not just pain - will
arrive in the spinal cord, become amplified, and be sent to the brain
as pain. The spinal cord becomes more sensitized to sending pain, lots
of it. Once this happens, the spinal cord is not able to properly sort
out and filter various sensory signals.
As a result, different sensory signals such as touch, pressure,
temperature, and joint movement all become amplified and sent up the
pain pathways, resulting in pain signals instead of the appropriate
touch, pressure, temperature, or joint motion signals.
This defect in pain transmission where there is increased sensitivity
to all stimuli even those which normally do not evoke pain is
called allodynia. Unfortunately for the person with Fibromyalgia, the
spinal cord is now "wired" to interpret nearly all sensory signals as
pain severe pain! We can still appreciate touch, pressure,
temperature, joint movement, and other non-pain signals, but pain
contaminates these signals, and we feel the pain.
Another key change at the spinal cord level is an increased formation
of Substance P and other neurotransmitters.
Substance P's primary role at the spinal cord level is to transmit
pain signals and to sensitize the spinal cord so it is readily
available to transmit pain. When Substance P reaches high
concentrations (as it does in Fibromyalgia), it can migrate up and
down the spinal cord, away from the initial location of the pain
signal. As a result, multiple levels of the spinal cord undergo
sensitization and send increased pain signals, leading to a
"generalization" of the Fibromyalgia.
This spreading of pain explains how one can develop generalized
Fibromyalgia from an initial regional area of pain. A common example
of this occurs following a motor vehicle accident where a particular
body part, such as the neck, was injured. Over time, the pain begins
to involve the mid-back, low back, and ultimately the whole body, even
though these areas were never injured. The Substance P-induced spinal
cord changes can explain this migration of pain from the neck to the
entire body.
BRAIN
Our poor brains have no chance, do they? Any pain memory stored in the
past will be re-awakened by this process. Fibromyalgia is notorious
for causing previously injured areas to hurt more once it develops.
This previously injured area may have settled down and become
essentially pain-free, but the pain memories remained, although
inactive. Thanks to the Fibromyalgia pain amplification process, the
inactive memories are reactivated.
The pain centers of our brain, the limbic system and the cerebral
cortex, are continuously fed these amplified signals from the spinal
cord. Changes occur:
* Serotonin levels decrease,
* Brain waves change,
* Sleep stages are affected,
* Blood flow and glucose [blood sugar] metabolism are affected.
The brain gets overwhelmed with these pain signals and spends a lot of
attention and energy monitoring the pain. Fibrofog occurs. Emotional
components are "attached" to pain, including f